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Century Hawk - Falcon - Raven - Predator > Bad Things about the Falcon 50SE V2
 
 
Isaac F
Key Veteran
Location: Panama Republic of Panama

Ok, I alway read here in Run Ryder that some brand of heli are plagued with the same problem.

For example:

Raptor: Woof and Poof, Cluch Brake Problem.

Sceadu: Woof and Poof, Overheating (OS 50).

So what are the common problem that everybody have in common with the Falcon 50 SE V2. And how they fixed

Why dont we make a list that we can forward to Century Helis so they can fix the problem.

Also, There is no were a individual Falcon 50 wep page that talk about this heli that has some advise or tip for the contrucction.

I do not have any idea of how to do a wep page but maybe somebody can make one. I thing this will help many other people that are interested in a Century heli to make there mind and decided to buy it.

So Falcon people, what do you thing????

Isaac
07-28-2002 Over year old.
 
 
DMShanks
Senior Heliman
Location: Salt Lake City, UT

Isaac, THIS forum, under the CENTURY category, is a very good reference. There are many threads on various aspects of the Century line of Helis, including their shortcomings. Take a look! Good luck and good flying. Best, Dave
07-28-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Isaac F
Key Veteran
Location: Panama Republic of Panama

Hello DMShanks, Yes I agree with you Run Ryder is very informative and always you find people willing to help.

But, how many times you are interested in bought something and you do a lot of search on the wep to find all the info you need to make your mind.

For example, there are lots of personal wep pages that talk about the Raptor, Sceadu, etc

How many personal wep pages are about Century Helis (Falcon 50 SEV2)????
ZERO

Maybe (I say Maybe) thats also contribuite to be a lots of bad post about Century Helis.
If does people that talk bad about this helis, find a wep page were they can see and read about the new improvement on this machine they will change there mind and even are willing to try one again.
It seems that the people that always talk bad about Century helis is because they bought a first edition Hawk.

Maybe we can talk to Century to give us a space in there wep to make our own wep about the Falcon, Hawk, etc

So people what you think

Isaac
07-28-2002 Over year old.
 
 
jimmyhua
Veteran
Location: Guam

Based on what I know from owning a Hawk SE.

I think the biggest problem a Falcon will have is foaming in the fuel tank. This is mainly because the tank is mounted a little too securely to the heli. Any small vibrations will be transmitted to it.

When the tank foams, the engine leans out and stutters, and the tank will foam even more. Quite a vicious cycle. The header tank is your solution to this.

Alot of guys will tell you not to use the header tank, and find out what is unbalanced and balance it. This works, until you find out that it is the engine itself that is unbalanced. It is good try to have every spinning part of the heli dial indicated and balanced, but you can only take this so far.

And then you are still left with a few choices:
1. Get another engine. (out of the question, too expensive)
2. Rip old fuel tank out, install padded fuel tank (looks ugly)
3. Install header tank. (looks nice/cheap & fixes most minor vibration problems)

Alot of people used to have problems with the wire-drive, but that is gone in the Falcon (now using torque-tube drive)

Alot of people used ot have problems with the plastic fan and dog-bone start system, but again, it's gone, you now have a stock metal fan which solves most of people's problems. The method in which you start this heli is significantly different from other heli's. And there is a learning curve to it, but that is not a problem per se.

I am really not aware of any other problems with the Falcon. I ordered mine, but it has not arrived yet.

I worry that the Falcon will also have an overheating problem as the shroud on the Falcon has a very tight fit when using an OS50. However, no one here on RR has complained about it yet. So, I guess it's okay.

Oh! The Tail control system on the Falcon is not fully symmetrical. This is not a problem per se either. It flies fine the way it is. However, you must make sure it doesn't bind in the air or you may lose all tail control (when the pitch slider breaks off in flight, or the bell crank breaks).

You can check this easily on the ground. With engine dead, and Rx and Tx on. Give full left rudder, and use hand to spin tail rotor around. It should spin freely. Give full right rudder, and spin tail rotor around. It should spin freely. If it doesn't make adjustments to gyro until it does.

Jimmy
07-28-2002 Over year old.
 
 
voclain
Senior Heliman
Location: Houma, LA

Jimmy....

.....AS info, it does not come with a metal cooling fan. WELL, that is unless they just started it. I did not have one in my kit and I just flew it for the first time yesterday.

I ordered one, but they are on backorder.

NOW that you mention it, the foaming tank is only a problem when you start to run out of fuel. The engine revs up and dies. By the way, I also have a header tank on order.

The shroud does fit tight, and on mine is ACTUALLY touching the engine. I tried everything to make it not touch, but I just could not get it to work.

YESTERDAY, I had my temp gadge ready. AS SOON as the engine stopped, I laid on the ground and did a temp test on the head. IT said 150 at the top, and 130 on the OS emblem.

I could be wrong, but that seems pretty cool to me????

YOU are going to love this kit.

Kirk
07-28-2002 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
jimmyhua
Veteran
Location: Guam

My Falcon SE came in today.

AND it has the plastic fan! Arggh!

My OLD Hawk SE kit came with a metal fan.

I started building it today. Time flies fast when you are having fun. I'm on step 18 right now.

It seems like the people who wrote the instructions and designed the kit took a lot of effort to make it as smooth as possible. And then they started to run out of gas.

Bag 1 was great, every part used and accounted for. But on Bag 3, I got some unused parts that I know will be used elsewhere. Everything is accounted for except 2 extra washers. I'm on Step 18 now. The unused parts a beginning to pile up, and it's getting more disorganized on me desk.

Oh, I also balanced the metal fan (yes I bought one!), and clutch and counter gear. As far as CG goes, these things are near perfect.

As far as the counter gear goes, yes, there is some runout, but it wasn't near as bad as some guys were saying. It's about the same as my Hawk SE, about 0.5mm off vertically. Too bad I don't have a dial-indicator setup. So I wasn't able to dial indicate anything.

Hmm, I should continue this in another post.

And yes, Volcain, 150F is really on the cool side. My Hawk SE runs at around 250F.
07-29-2002 Over year old.
 
 
voclain
Senior Heliman
Location: Houma, LA

I thought 150 was cold!! And being I'm down here in South South Louisiana, heck, MY forhead gets that hot just walking to go get my mail!!!!

Yours,

Kirk
07-29-2002 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Lift
Elite Veteran
Location: Houston, TX

Falcon Issues

Guys,
I have some fresh digi pics to share but where can I get some free hosting other than RCUniverse.

Regarding things that could be improved on the Falcon:
1) Correction in the tail pitch slider assembly.(I used R60 parts and it is now MUCH better)
2) Fuel tank plug assembly. The old rubber plug trick is not ideal for helis. You WILL have a problem with the fuel plug sooner or later. I had to cut the lip off the tank so that the plug would sit deeper into the tank and hold better when compressed.
3) Dampening system wears fast. Century needs to change the dampening systme to an o-ring and cup system like the many of the 60s use.
4) Servo arrangement. The current servo layout is ok but is to tight. It would be nice to see the rudder servo moved to the side of the radio tray and the elevator spread out from the aileron a tad better. It all works great but the area is a tad tight.
5) Cooling fan shroud. This should be modified to allow a straight drop of the engine down through the bottom. If you could drop the engine on the Falcon like you do on the Raptor it would be paradise!!!


JimmyHua,
You don't need the aluminum fan. The Falcon cooling system works fantastic. Maybe even to good. I have yet to get my OS .50 above 199F. Yes, it is a tight fit but the air is going THRU the fins not over them like most helis. So, I think the metal fan is unnecessay.

Also, the constant drive hub is unnecessay. I have my slipper setup tight and it is allowing me full piroettes in autos in both directions just fine. So, I don't see where the constrant drive would be of any additional value except to create something else to strip out in a crash.

Hope this helps...
07-29-2002 Over year old.
 
 
voclain
Senior Heliman
Location: Houma, LA

Payton.....

.....email those images to me. I'll host them for you for at least 2 weeks, after that, I can't promise they will stay on my system. I kinda need the space.

Send them to: webmaster@pro4um.com

Yours,

Kirk
07-29-2002 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Lift
Elite Veteran
Location: Houston, TX

Kirk

Just sent a .zip file to ya.
07-29-2002 Over year old.
 
 
blazen
Senior Heliman
Location: California

Not worth the aluminum they are made from

Instead of worrying so much about the Counter gear you really should get some dial indicating equipment and check that Aluminum Fan.

In My opinion they are not worth the aluminum they are made from !!!
I have check 4 of them so far and have yet to find one that would slide on the crank and line up with the slots in the clutch. The only way I have found to get the aluminum fan on the crank and line up with the clutch is to remove the clutch and mate the fan to the clutch. Then spin the whole assembly onto the crank as one unit. Don’t forget to clean the aluminum from the crank shaft threads as the crank shaft will cut threads in half the fan hub. In reality this is not acceptable. After dial indicating 4 aluminum fans I have yet to find one that is not pathetically out of round. On average they have been about .015 out of round and about .20 vertical.

I ended up using the plastic fan, as I felt that the aluminum fan being that far out could cause high frequency vibrations

Static balancing the fan will not correct this problem. When I mounted the fan to my Lathe using the center hole the fan checked out under .001. The problem is with the key way on the bottom of the fan. The keyway is not centered on the fan and does not line up with the center hole. It seems as though the only way to get the fan to line up would be to
1. Slightly drill out the center hole
2. Dremel the keyway
3. Shim and a dial indicate the fan to the clutch.
4. Or live with the possible fuel foaming. Or worse yet radio damage and subsequent crash

I had to ask myself if the aluminum fan was worth that much work.

73’s
Blazen
07-29-2002 Over year old.
 
 
jimmyhua
Veteran
Location: Guam

Hi,

What I did was, slap the fan onto the clutch, installed metal clutch bell, and balanced the whole thing as a unit. This was with the metal fan. It was pretty balanced (using a cheap, airplane prop balancer). However, I have no dial indicator setup. The last one I saw cost $771 at enco, and I thought to myself, forget it!

The way you describe installing the fan, is the way I installed the fan. It actually works best, whether plastic or metal. Even with the plastic fan, the hole is too small and the engine threads cut a bigger hole through it.
07-29-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Lift
Elite Veteran
Location: Houston, TX

Dial Indicator

JimmyHua,
I paid $20 bucks for my dial indicator from Enco. It measures .0005 resolution. For another $10 bucks I got a magnetic base and place it on a 1/2" thick 10"x10" steel plate and measure away!!
07-29-2002 Over year old.
 
 
oldfart
Elite Veteran
Location: Vancouver, Canada

Metal Fan et all

I thought I had posted something on this before, but I cannot find it so maybe I pushed the wrong button and it didn't register so I will try again.

I have always been one that will try the stock unit first, and only if it does not work to my satisfaction will I consider and "optional unit". I have also tested many stock items against "optional" units relating to many helicopters of different brands and models. Consequently you will note that I use the term "optional" items instead of "upgrade" item.

Why you may ask? As I consider the term "upgrade" to imply better performance (rather then just better looking) I expect for anything to be classified as an upgrade, it must deliver better performance. If it only delivers better looks, then I call it a "NORT" (Not Required Tidbit).

In many cases I have found the "optional" item to not be an upgrade at all. In fact, in some cases, they were even proven under test be a downgrade. Consequently, you will not have ever found a "metal cooling fan" on any of my helis (Century, Hirobo, MinAir, Kalt, Robbe or TSK) nor will you have ever found a Carbon Fiber or G-10 frame or C/F tail boom on any of them (testing proved them to flex far more then the stock aluminum units).

The stock Century fan and shroud assemblies that have come with the Hawk and Falcon series have consistantly proven to be some of the most efficient I have ever tested. So I could see no reason to change to an optional unit and I have never encouraged anyone to do so either.

As for a comment on an items contribution to noticeable vibration, I would always install items in their stock form first, then draw a conclusion.

The clutch/fan/cutch bell system in the Hawk & Falcon are IMHO one of its strong features. Why? Because they render dial indication of components and static balancing of components to be of a RELATIVELY minor consequence. This system does so by keeping everything in the vertical and horizontal planes relatively close to the center of rotation. This minimizing the length of the moment arms any vibrational forces (that could be generated by these components being slightly misaligned or balanced) would work through. To make it simple, a 15/1000 run-out of a light component (like a fan), sitting directly on the crankshaft (Hawk / Falcon) will be of relatively little consequence compered to a heavy fan/clutch assembly that is attached to the end of an aluminum fan hub (most other helicopters). These will have the heavy fan/clutch assembly sitting more then an inch out from the end of the crankshaft, giving it a relatively long moment arm to work through. Off center run-out in those type of fan/clutch assemblies can be componded by the the run-out that is present in most modern engines using crankshafts that are not center ground. A 2/1000 error in these systems could generate about the same or more vibration then the light fan having a 15/1000 error in thsystem used in the Hawk or Falcon.

Consequently, balancing and dial indicating the components in the other types of systems becomes very critical, while in the Century system is not so critical. This is why the stock configuration works so well without the use of any "Hi-Zoot" components or tools. IMHO a definite design plus.
07-29-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Lift
Elite Veteran
Location: Houston, TX

Oh yeah...

For those of you concerned with fuel foaming on the Falcon let me tell you to forget about it. I built mine totally stock and flew it for 2 gallons unchanged and NEVER had a fuel foam problem. That is even dispite the VISIBLE runout on the counter gear and a fan that was out of balance.

In boredom(because this heli is sooo low maintenance) I tore the engine clutch assembly down one night and found the stock fan to be out of balance. I balanced it on my high point anyhow and checked the runout on the fan where the start shaft attaches. It was out .002 so I turned it 180 degrees and it registered ~.0015. I left it alone.

Well, despite all this the machine ran the same as it did prior to these efforts. So, if any of you are concerned about fuel foaming forget it!

I love to hover this bird side-on and listen to the 2-stage transmission. It is so smooth. I still consider this one of the better 50 ships out. I am not disappointed in choosing it over the Sceadu & Raptor at all. It think it is a best buy.
07-29-2002 Over year old.
 
 
Lift
Elite Veteran
Location: Houston, TX

"Upgrades" and Reality

Stephen,
I appreciate your response and glady receive advise from those that have been at this longer than me. Apparently, you have some time with RC helis and have accumulated the knowledge necessary to pick out quality products such as the Falcon SE over the competition.

Although, I do know from what I speak of regarding the Century tail fork and pitch travel. While you may have had some success using the CSM gyros and tailblade combinations I did not with the GY 401. To infer that I do not know "correct gyro setup" serves no pupose. When I say that I spent countless tanks and time experimenting with it I didn't mean I bolted it on and then in one foul swoop gave up on the Century tail. I tried stock blades, Model Sport 97mm blades, NHP 85mm WIDE CHORD mind you tail blades, differential throws, various servo horn lengths all to no avail. If a simple tail blade change would have solved the problem woudn't it seem logical that I would have stopped there???? Some of these changes did improve the performance but compared to the performance I am experiencing now it was WELL worth the $25 dollars it cost me. The difference is just to vast to argue. Try it yourself otherwise ease off the degrading remarks regarding someone's knowledge/experience. Just share yours as I have done and leave it at that.

For the most part the aluminum and carbon goodies are indeed eye candy. But appearance matters!! If it didn't matter we would all be flying plastic bleach bottle canopies and woodies. Part of the hobby is in the "tinkering" aspect which involves painting, detailing, setup, refinement, customization, etc. Am I wrong here?

Let me offer the following reasons for the money spent on the upgrades I listed:
1) CF Fin set - The X-Cell fin set contains a longer verticle fin. I choose this to help provide addtional tail rotor blade ground protection for the longer tail blades.
2) DBC Alum boom clamp - The stock boom clamp would not work adequately with the CF horizontal fin because it didn't truly "clamp" the boom. Also, the stock boom clamp mounts the boom support on the bottom of the boom which obstructs the path for the CF tail rotor pushrod.
3) CF Tail Rotor Pushrod & Rudder Servo Tail mount - Is there any debate over whether or not a CF pushrod improve gyro gain and reduces the amount of friction found in a wire pushrod/guide support arrangement? If there is I am not going to touch it because my results go with what I am running.
4) Century Aluminum headbutton - Ever tried to stop the remaining main rotor disk momentum without it? Then you would know why I have it then. Should have been included in the kit IMHO.
5) Header Tank - No debate here. We all know why we run one with rc helicopters. Mine is mounted ABOVE the main needle line and I have hovered an entire tanks out inverted without a temperature change in the motor or loss or power. Not saying that everyone should mount it above at all. Just saying that with my muffler(TT .50 muffler) and current plumbing it is not an issue. Mount yours where you like but don't be overly concerned about being inline with the main needle. BTW, the motor goes RICH on the end of the tank.
6)CF Boom supports - The gains here are debatable. But, you save a few grams of weight, get a more rigid support than aluminum, and don't have to worry about the boom supports getting wrapped around the mainshaft if you get the funky chicken. Which is where they always seem to end up.

Some people take pride in flying an all stock heli and others like to personalize. I tend to like personalized appearances and certainly will purchase those items that do actually improve performance/durability.

Not trying to be offensive Stephen. I appreciate your input and have learned to never be so haughty that I am not correctible. If I have been then I appologize.
07-30-2002 Over year old.
 
 
gforce
Veteran
Location: Jacksonville FL

Really Payton, quit twisting all of our arms to buy Raptor parts. OUCH, quit it, it hurts, OK, OK, I will buy the upgrades, just please quit hurting me.

Seriously though, I was putting my Falcon together, and when I got to the T/R mechanism, I immediately noticed there was something about it I did not like, namely, the pitch slider could not travel full throw close to the gear box, because the pitch forks hit on the pivot point. And unless you block it with some fuel line, or set your limit up to limit your travel, it will hit. This bothered me. And I wondered how many novices built it, not knowing to prevent slappage, and hit the slider on the gear box. It bothered me and I was looking for a way to imporve it. Then I saw Payton's post on it here, and I was so glad that he had already done the work to find something that worked better. I ordered the Raptor parts before I ever finished the Heli, because I knew it needed something different in the T/R for my flying style. I like to use full rudder available to me. And the stock setup simply does not allow for that, expecially if you use the GY401 like I do that does not have limit settings for either direction.

Then I read some of Payton's other posts about other modifications, and I think they are all great. I especially like the one about the muffler. Nothing worse than a heli, with a big engine, that produces less than optimal power. That is why I got the Falcon 50, more power.
07-30-2002 Over year old.
 
 
blazen
Senior Heliman
Location: California

CF Tail Rotor Pushrod

Hi Lift.
I just thought I would comment on a few points

Lift said
>>>3) CF Tail Rotor Pushrod & Rudder Servo Tail mount - Is there any debate over whether or not a CF pushrod improve gyro gain and reduces the amount of friction found in a wire pushrod/guide support arrangement? If there is I am not going to touch it because my results go with what I am running.<<<


I use as little Carbon fiber products as I can on my helis. The fact is that replacing a stock aluminum part for a CF one is more often a downgrade not an upgrade...
I would never use CF/ tail blades. CF tail blades are to rigid and do not provide any Dampening to the tail rotor assembly. they also contribute to quite a bit of High frequency vibration in flight not to mention huge amounts of RFI.

On helis with Carbon Fiber Frames and tail booms I have always had to use grounding straps between components to eliminate RFI. I have my doubts about the CF Pushrod. I would carefully support the CF pushrod at each end. I have a feeling that because of its diameter, length and rigidity it might me more affected by vibration and fatigue at its ends. I also believe that it might transfer an excessive amount of Vibration to the servo and Tail rotor control bell crank. This could lead to fatigue and possible failure of these components. I would suggest closely inspecting these areas during your preflight and post flight inspections

73's

Blazen
07-30-2002 Over year old.
 
 
blazen
Senior Heliman
Location: California

header tank

One more

>>>Mine is mounted ABOVE the main needle line and I have hovered an entire tanks out inverted without a temperature change in the motor or loss or power. Not saying that everyone should mount it above at all. Just saying that with my muffler(TT .50 muffler) and current plumbing it is not an issue. Mount yours where you like but don't be overly concerned about being inline with the main needle. BTW, the motor goes RICH on the end of the tank.<<<

This is just common physics!!!! It’s ridiculous to think that the header tank needs to be inline with the throttle valve Spray bar. Shezzzz I have been trying to explain this to the guys at My flying site for years.. My best friend keeps telling me not to bother anymore. It’s like explaining a Cigarette Lighter to a cave man.

Since most of the pilots here seem much smarter then that so I will try again.

The header tank is nothing more then a reservoir in a siphon hose. As long as the tank is air tight it can be five feet above the Spray bar and it would not matter. That is until the main tank is dry !! then it maters a lot!! As long as the main tank is close to the centerline all is fine. Think of it as siphoning gas out of a car. you can loop the hose as far above the tank/fuel as you want. The fuel will still flow at the same rate as long as the end of the hose is lower then the fuel level in the tank. Before anyone says anything I was not taking the resistance of the extra hose into consideration in that analogy

73's
Blazen
07-30-2002 Over year old.
 
 
blazen
Senior Heliman
Location: California

And again

Carbon fiber, more rigid than aluminum...


I think we settled this once before ? Is CF more ridged then Aluminum ?? I believe that a Composite needs to be molded into a shape of some sort before it realizes any rigidity. My friend and I did a test back when CF was starting to show up in parts for model helis. We took several different composites Including G10,CF and set up a test bench. We used a dial indicator to measure deflection and a torque wrench rated in inch Oz to measure applied force. The results where easily anticipated. In flat sheet configuration CF was considerably more flexible then aluminum and G10 was by far more flexible then CF

For rigidity Aluminum is still the best choice

73's
Blazen
07-30-2002 Over year old.
 
 
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Century Hawk - Falcon - Raven - Predator > Bad Things about the Falcon 50SE V2
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