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e-Electric General Discussion > DragonFly 4CH RTF Helicopter
 
 
dragon_not_fly
Heliman
Location: US

6bucks -- you have taken your first step

6bucks, you are learning, never give up. That's awesome that you kept that little heli in the air for 30 seconds! Good job, but don't give up. To get where I am today with my heli I had to go through some really painful experiences. Honestly, I have to admit, there were 2 or 3 instances when I was trying to get my separates working and they were not working properly, where I was really annoyed and frustrated that I fantasized about smashing the Walkera #4 into pieces...........I really mean that. I am glad that I did not, I still have alot to learn yet and no my Walkera #4 fixed pitch helicopter is not perfect, then again, is anything ever really perfect? Getting back to your Thunderbird II problem(s), I read your other post, all of it, if you want, reply back with the setup on the Cyclone; that is, what components did it come with; i.e, all-in-one mixer board, or a 3-in-1 mixer board and a GWS PG-03 gyro etc...? Time to do some detective work if you have not already sent the little devil back to the people that you bought it from. Did you place a DMM(Digital Multi Meter or volt meter) across the wire/connector that leads to the main motor?; if so, are you measuring any volts? Did you do the same for the tail motor? If the Cyclone or Thunderbird has removable crystals from the receiver and transmitter, try removing them and then reseating them, it might be one or more bad crystals. Let me know the helicopter's setup if you want.
06-18-2005 05:30 PM
 
 
dragon_not_fly
Heliman
Location: US

6bucks -- an experienced Cyclone/Thunderbird pilot's experiences

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_3.../tm.htm#3067614
06-18-2005 05:42 PM
 
 
6bucks
Heliman
Location: Oxnard, CA

Dragon..sent you a PM. Thanks for all your help!
06-18-2005 06:25 PM
 
 
dragon-arrggghh
Heliman
Location: selby,north yorkshire england

main blades

where is it possable to buy really good main blades so far i have got two pair,one pair gives me about 2 feet on full battery and the other pair about 2 inches any ideas anyone
06-26-2005 04:39 PM
 
 
dragon_not_fly
Heliman
Location: US

Lift-off problem

dragon-arrggghh, how old is your DragonFly, I am assuming that you
are flying the Walkera DragonFly #4? If so, it may not be the main
rotor blades, but it actually may be a worn down main motor that is
not providing enough RPM/head speed to lift the weight of that heli
into the air. Have you tried different flight battery packs, if so, are you
getting similar results? I have heard and seen in the "twister" manual,
basically an Esky HoneyBee helicopter marketed for Australia, where
it says to twist the main rotor blades near the rotor assembly to increase camber(pitch) so as to increase lift. I would NOT do that until you have
either tried different flight battery packs and a new RK-370SD main motor.
You can purchase new main rotor blades from here: http://www.happibuy.com/;
http://www.rc-expert.com; http://www.hobbyjapan2000.com and off of
Ebay sellers.
06-26-2005 11:04 PM
 
 
dragon_not_fly
Heliman
Location: US

Tail Motor Problems Take 4

And the saga continues... I have finally reached 70 flights on the same Colco
Thunderbird II tail motor with my setup which I have in detailed described above.
At flight 70, as the flight progressed, I needed FULL right yaw trim tab and even
1/4 right rudder stick deflection from center line to keep the nose of the helicopter
pointed straight, this as a side note, was never necessary to do when the tail motor was younger(had less flights on it), even when flight pack voltage ran way down when the heli was stuck deep within GE(Ground Effect). So, I unbolted the tail motor and desoldered it from TREC's motor lead wires and then took a small
jewelers flat headed screw driver and proceeded to take the motor cap off. I was
surprised to find what I did; what I found was no brush pads! The brush pads as
I call them, are the gun metal like blocks that rub agaisnt the commutator of the
motor to make electrical contact. They had completely worn down to nothing
and the only thing that was completing the electrical circuit was the brush pad
springs as I call them. In side the motor cap there was a fine graphite looking
dust or powder in which this powder was originally the brush pads! One of the
brush pad springs even had a small "bubble" on the outside of it do to heating.
I noticed at around flight number 57 a need for increasing amount of right yaw
trim tab was necessary as the flight progressed to keep the nose straight. At flight
number 60, I needed also some right rudder to help in keeping the nose pointed
straight. I am estimating that this tail motor only has may be 10 to 15 at most
flights left on it before even the brush pad springs "burn through" leaving ab-
solutely nothing to make electrical contact with the commutator anymore.
So, using the Colco Thunderbird II tail motor and my setup I am estimating
that I can only get up to 80 flights on one tail motor before it will completely
fail. I wondered why a tail motor; that is, a brushed D/C electric motor loses
power over time, in power I mean, RPM. Apparently, a brushed motor's per-
formance really boils down to just how well the brushes make contact with the commutator and how much of the brushes are left to make contact! As the motor
wears over time, more trim is necessary to compensate for decreased power
and hence less RPM of the motor. By increasing trim you increase the amount
of volts hitting those brushes which will help to increase RPM and power, but
will actually reduce the life of the brushes! It is a vicious cycle. There is a point
that I have found where not even FULL right yaw trim tab is enough to compen-
sate for decreased RPM such that even right rudder is needed to help keep the
nose pointing straight. When you reach this point, the REVO-MIX(revolutions
mix) is out far enough such that the rudder trim tab as I say is out of band; that is,
even FULL right yaw trim tab is not enough to fight agaisnt main rotor torque.
With TREC I have two options to bring the rudder trim tabs back into effectiveness; that is, the rudder trim tab is sufficient with adjustment to help
maintain correct/sufficient revo-mix, I can either increase the throttle curve or
increase the mix gain for the LiPO cell count in question. The problem with this
is that by increasing the throttle curve you increase voltage that is being applied
to the tail motor brushes which increases current while also increasing heating.
These negative side effects will decrease the life of the tiny motor brushes. I
decided not to change a single parameter within TREC since I knew this would
aggravate tail motor brush destruction, but would just learn to fly while holding
in rudder to compensate for left nose drift while even in a nose in hover! As a
side note, holding all other things constant, when tail motor RPM on a fixed
pitch tail rotor decreases, the amount of air that it pushes or blows if it is on the
right side of the helicopter if facing the rear of the heli with a main rotor that spins
clockwise if facing the top of the heli, the amount of air that it pushes decreases.
If the amount of air that it pushes decreases, the less force it will exert or push
against the tail of the helicopter where torque direction is a 180 degree opposite
arc to tail motor/rotor force while facing the rear of the helicopter. So, where to now? Well, I tried in vain in repairing the tail motor brushes in the helicopter's 70 flight tail motor with no success, so I placed a brand new one on and have started a new log of how long this one will last and at which flight the rudder trim tab goes out of band holding all other things constant. I always have a trick up my sleeve though, see in the next post....
06-26-2005 11:49 PM
 
 
dragon_not_fly
Heliman
Location: US

Tail Motor Problems Take 5 -- the future

I was thinking that there is no end to burning out the tail motors
on these micro electric helicopters and consider this a waste
of copper wires and magnets! Furthermore, these motors are
way over-priced by the online vendors that market these as
replacement parts, some have these as high as $11.95! These
motors probably wholesale for say a $1 or so, may be even less.
It would be interesting to see if anyone can find an electronics/
electrical distributor that will be willing to sell these little motors
to average folks. Just keeping up with the tail motor burn out
problem is also futile in a sense, since you are not adding any
new features/functionality to your helicopter, you are only trying
to maintain it in flying condition. So, I decided, that if I were to buy
a computer helicopter transmitter, than I would buy a more robust
tail motor/control solution. I have recently purchased a:
Futaba 7CHP 7-Channel Computer Helicopter Radio, since I really
want only one transmitter that can remember up to 10 different models
that also has built-in revo-mixing and CCPM, since I want to pur-
chase soon a CCPM helicopter. I want to learn how to "program"
a computer helicopter radio for revo-mixing/gyro setups and diff-
erent collective pitch setups. I am a firm believer that in the field of
r/c helicopters, learning how to set these machines up, particulary
the collective pitch ones, will take you to the next few levels instead
of having a rather rigid all-in-one board do it for you. Getting back to
tail motors, I have also recently purchased these two items:
Feigao 12mm Brushless Tail Motor and a Castle Creations Phoenix
10 brushless ESC to control it. I have heard and read nothing but good
reports so far concerning the power and longevity of this Feigao brush-
less motor as used as a tail motor. Now, I will have to remove TREC
from the helicopter, put the Castle Creations Phoenix 10 brushless ESC
in its place, but I will have to DUMP the GWS GWT-4A II FM trans-
mitter since it has no built-in revo-mixing in it, it is not a computer radio
and I currently do NOT own a tail locking or heading hold gyro, but only
a rate/gain gyro(the GWS PG-03). My idea is to switch to the Futaba com-
puter helicopter radio, keep the PG-03 rate/gain gyro, but now I will have to
enable revo-mixing in the Futaba transmitter coupled with setting up some
fairly complex curves within the radio to maintain correct revo-mix settings
while either hovering or in forward flight. I have to admit, I am a little over-
whelmed on this radio and currently have no idea on how to setup the cor-
rect revo-mix on it! Since I do not own a heading hold gyro, without the cor-
rect revo-mix settings within the transmitter, I will NOT be able to fly IF,
somehow, I get this working and test/log the Feigao brushless tail motor,
I will post all of my setup parameters onto this thread. Furthermore, if this
works, it's on to Esky's HoneyBee 2 CP barebones r/c helicopter kit!
06-27-2005 12:14 AM
 
 
I_like_to_crash
Senior Heliman
Location: Groton, CT USA

I too have had GREAT problems with my dragonfly. I have had it for about 3 years, and have not got it to work once.....i have recently just removed the electronics from its SEALED "box of goodies". It would never fly under control, it would just fly around basicaly under its own control, and crash. It is kind of amazing that I never burnt a motor out after about 100 flights of crashing. I just kept pouring money into it untill i decided to get a hirobo xrb lama. That thing is a dream to fly compared to the dragonfly. Then i moved up to the shogun which is even better.

I perform precision manuevers called crashes.
06-27-2005 05:34 AM
 
 
dragon-arrggghh
Heliman
Location: selby,north yorkshire england

lift off part 2

hi, yes it is a walkera #4, i've had the heli about 2-3 months the original pair of blades were brilliant, but i eventully broke one, i already had a spare pair so when i put them on and it would only lift to 2 feet or so i was quite dissapointed already burnt out one tail motor, i have also found that the tail bar has a tendency to drop out so that the tail rotor hits the ground i have been looking to see if a raptor style one will fit,any ideas:mad
06-27-2005 04:41 PM
 
 
dragon_not_fly
Heliman
Location: US

Lift-off problems

dragon-arrggghh, definitely swap out the main motor with a brand new
RK-370SD. That's just about the same time and the SAME symptoms
that happened with my stock Walkera #4 using the stock 4-in-1(all-in-
one circuit board). It's right in my flight log, the heli was doing the same
thing, I could only get waist high, then after some time, only knee high!
I replaced the motor, problem fixed. In lay mans terms, the stock Walkera
electronics wore down the brushes in the RK-370SD main motor. Try
and CA(super glue) the CF(carbon fiber) tail boom support into place.
Another item concerning the tail boom support rod is to make the rod
LONGER than the stock length; that is, make it ~1.5 inches longer, this will
help in reducing tail rotor strikes. The stock tail rotor is quite large in size
and with the stock tail support rod length, it barely clears the ground on a
smooth hard surface.
06-28-2005 01:39 AM
 
 
dragon_not_fly
Heliman
Location: US

Out of control Walkera #4

I_like_to_crash, that stinks that your helicopter was such a chore
to try and fly. I have to admit, even when I have my helicopter
fully trimmed out, in a dead calm, I can only manage to hover in
place with no control input corrections for about 2.5 to 3 seconds,
no more than this. The Walkera #4 is quite a little devil to fly nice
and smoothly, honestly! For you, not really knowing your situation,
it may have been the 4-in-1 controller, of course there is no support
with the board and it costs $50 excluding shipping/handling to replace
currently. Shogun, that's a beauty, I love that helicopter. How well does
it fly out in the wind? How are the tail gears holding up on that; that is,
about how many flights are you averaging before they strip out, I have
heard problems with this. Or, did you upgrade the tail control setup with
a belt drive?
06-28-2005 02:03 AM
 
 
dragon_not_fly
Heliman
Location: US

Walkera #4 tail setup/maintenance

Here are a few things that I have found with my helicopter; that is,
a Walkera DragonFly #4 regarding its tail setup. After some time
the tail motor's brass pinion gear starts to wear down! I could not
believe this if I did not see it for myself. After about 35 flights on it,
the gear mesh gets chunky, what I mean by chunky is that it goes
clunk, clunk, clunk with every tail rotor gear/motor pinion increment
when you spin it with your finger. I have also noticed small tail rotor
gear pieces of very small black plastic embedded in the tail motor's
brass pinion. If you make it to this point; that is, if your tail motor does
not burn out!; you will want to reposition the tail motor/resetup the
mesh, clean out the pinion so that no more debris is embedded in the
pinion's teeth. Another thing that I have noticed is that the tail motor
will not seat perpendicular with the motor mount, this will cause the
tail motor pinion to be at a slight angle with the tail rotor drive gear.
This situation is not desirable as it will increase drag or friction hence
causing more voltage/current to overcome this causing a little less
flight time and more wear and tear on the D/C brushes in the tail motor.
Recently, I made a VERY stupid mistake as I was rushing and not
really paying attention to what I was doing. The mistake was this, I
accidently pushed the silicone fuel tubing that holds the tail rotor on
the tail rotor shaft up agaisnt the tail rotor's hub too TIGHTLY. I did not
realize what I did until I landed and felt the tail motor.....it was HOT to
the touch, in fact, I have never felt one so warm before. I was very sur-
prised and performed some troubleshooting. I turned the tail rotor
around with my finger and noticed that I needed an excess amount of
force to turn it, more than I can ever remember before. I could not
find the root cause of the problem, so under a hunch, I took the tail rotor
and silicone fuel tubing off, then I put the tail rotor back on without the
silicon fuel tubing holder. What I found is that it spun nice and freely.
So, I put the silicon stopper back on with just enough pressure agaisnt
the tail rotor hub to hold it on and then tried spinning it again with my
finger. It spun nice and smoothly with considerably less drag than
before. I took off and flew and ran the flight battery pack down. When
I landed I felt the tail motor's casing....it was almost cool to the touch,
problem solved. Simply put, NEVER stall your tail rotor as you run the
risk of having an avalanche of current running through your ESC and
tail motor potentially causing permanent damage. Make SURE that at
all times that tail rotor spins as freely as possible so as to minimize drag
and to decrease tail motor wear.
06-28-2005 02:28 AM
 
 
I_like_to_crash
Senior Heliman
Location: Groton, CT USA

dragon_not_fly

I only have like 2 flights on my shogun...but it flies very nicely....I just finished building it I haven't stripped any gears but i have had a boom strike...it's still a stock tail set up with conical gears...Im hopping to get a few flights atleast before it strips, but I do have spares so its all good. =)

I perform precision manuevers called crashes.
06-28-2005 03:40 AM
 
 
dragon-arrggghh
Heliman
Location: selby,north yorkshire england

lift off 3

hi , i saw this item on ebay,no 5984330907 it's a rubber tail fin that slots over the boom so it wont fall off maybe that bit of info my come in handy to some one, thanks for the info so far and i'll keep you posted as to how things are going . ps how much was the motor.
06-28-2005 04:53 PM
 
 
dragon_not_fly
Heliman
Location: US

main motor replacement The

dragon-arrggghh, believe it or not, I replaced my Walkera #4's
motor with an RK-370SD main motor for the Venom Night
Ranger located here: http://www.ehobbies.com/venf6220.html
That motor has now literally 95 flights on it and it is still pro-
viding sufficient power, again, it is controlled by a GWS ICS-300
brushed ESC on my helicopter. The only tricky thing was that I
needed to replace the motor's pinion since it was a 9 tooth pinion
and it did not produce enough head speed on the Walkera #4. The
reason it did not produce enough head speed is that the Walkera
#4 has a LARGE main motor drive gear while the Night Ranger's
was smaller. I removed the 9 tooth pinion and put on a 10 tooth
pinion, the standard pinion tooth count for the main motor's brass
pinion gear. Currently, over at http://www.happibuy.com/, this motor
retails for $13.50. I suggest you shop around, all you need is an
RK-370SD with a 10 tooth pinion gear. Case in point, I just found
this deal at http://www.rc-expert.com for: Part Num: 04-015 which
is a replacement motor, here it is only $7.00, excluding shipping/
handling.
06-29-2005 03:19 AM
 
 
dragon-arrggghh
Heliman
Location: selby,north yorkshire england

re motor

Well i must be a lucky man dragon_not _fly, i just checked out my motor and it's the RK 370 SD you mentioned in your last post with the ten gear tooth, i got some new blades and they work well plenty of lift, i also had a really good look at the old blades and they were pointing upward towards the tip of the blade and seemed to be twisted at the same place,either this was a manufacturing fault or they have been near somthing hot to distirt them,where as my old ones were straight and no twists
06-29-2005 06:37 PM
 
 
dragon_not_fly
Heliman
Location: US

re motor --

dragon-arrggghh, nice job getting back into the air. For me
when I was having those symptoms my mains(main rotor blades)
were fine, it was the main motor that had worn down. In a prior
post I did mention about the Twister(Esky HoneyBee FP helicopter)
that mentioned twisting the main blades for more pitch if you have
lift-off problems. I am a bit interested in these main blades from GWS
that recently came out: http://www.gws.com.tw/english/english.htm,
the link for the main blades having part numbers: GWHPS001 and 2
Does anyone have any information about these mains and what they
have to offer over the current GWS DragonFly's main rotor blades?
Of course, there are always these legendary FP mains from like90.com,
FP238 - HHS for Most Fixed Pitch Micro Heli's. at:
http://www.like90.com/index.asp?Pag...EWPROD&ProdID=2
I still have not put these on my heli, has anyone used them and if so,
how do they perform over the stock blades?
06-30-2005 02:12 AM
 
 
lightning_au
Heliman
Location: North QLD, Australia.

dragonfly...

hi all..
i have the same problem with the heli not lifting on a certain pair of blades.. i broke my original ones, put the replacement ones on, and would only lift about 1 inch off the ground. i'm grounded now while some new blades come. apart from that i'm very happy with it. very challenging, but locally sourced parts are non existant. i have to buy them from ebay or overseas...
have fun.
06-30-2005 10:15 PM
 
 
dragon_not_fly
Heliman
Location: US

Flybar repair trick #1

In the somewhat recent past I was zipping around my
garage with the Walkera #4 and made a banking turn
to close to a leg of a table in which the left flybar rod
struck the table with sufficient RPM causing it to snap
off. This ended the flight of course, I was wondering
how I could make a new flybar rod since I had no CF
(Carbon Fiber) rods laying around let alone at the right
diameter and I also did not have the officially sanctioned
part from Walkera as the replacement part, that part being
part #: 04-018(stabilizer rod). I toyed with the idea of using
a thin wooden dowl at the right diameter and length, but as
luck would have it, that too was not laying around my house.
I was becoming a bit annoyed since I am pretty much on a
shoe string budget and this is the only helicopter that I own
and now I can not fly and I have no replacement parts laying
around which means I would have to go online and order
some and wait for them to arrive so it seemed. I looked
around my work bench and then I saw something, that some-
thing was the original training gear set that I got with the heli,
it was just sitting there off to the side since I no longer need
to fly with it on. I took one of the orange colored ping pong
balls off and stuck the entire rod through the flybar holding
assembly within the rotor assembly. I could not believe it, it
worked, it was just a little bit thinner in diameter than the
official replacement flybar part, so I cut it to the exact same
length of the original part using a hack saw, ligned it up, put
the flybar paddles back on and leveled/aligned them and
then took off. The helicopter flew as normal, no detectable
differences that I could tell. The cool thing about this is that
I can get 4 flybars out of a training gear set where the training
gear set currently retails for $10.99 over at www.rc-expert.com
while the official flybar part there is $5.00 ea.
07-03-2005 11:30 PM
 
 
dragon-arrggghh
Heliman
Location: selby,north yorkshire england

fly bar

well done dragon_not _fly a bit of intuition and saved some $$$$$ in the process, sometiomes it makes me wonder where they get the prices from.
07-04-2005 04:51 PM
 
 
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e-Electric General Discussion > DragonFly 4CH RTF Helicopter
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