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Century Helicopter . MTA Hobbies . MRC/Altech Marketing USA

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Autogyros - Gyrocopters > human powered auto gyro--- redbull flugtag
 
 
aaronredbaron
Senior Heliman
Location: Ontario CA, USA

at the redbull flugtag event in portland (1st annual event attracted 30,000 people) a few weeks ago I noticed that all entries suffered from the same problem, there is no way to get moving more than 7-10mph before you drop off the ramp. with all of the serious designs being fixed wing none could have acheived flying speed before falling into the river. so I started thinking...if the launch team put their energy into spinning the rotor as they push the contraption towards its watery fate, one might have a chance at producing enough thrust from a human powered propeller to get enough drag (lift) to actually fly.

rules-entirely human powered with no energy retention devices or helium, etc.

goal- to fly as far as possible after being pushed off a 30 foot long ramp 30 feet up

the record holder for flugtag used a hang glider and managed to drop down right to the water and get enough energy to glide 160 feet.

any ideas????
08-16-2004 Over year old.
 
 
AustinTatious
Heliman
Location: Hurst, Texas

autogyros

Gyrocopters need good power to weight ratios. I doubt that a human powered Gyro would do much more than auto downwards. Humans cant even produce 1 horsepower. That dosent swing a very large prop.

NO energy retention devices? no FLywheels allowed?

Austin Williams
08-17-2004 Over year old.
 
 
aaronredbaron
Senior Heliman
Location: Ontario CA, USA

here is the link if anyone is still interested. I know you can't used rubber bands or bungies, but I dunno about flywheels
http://www.redbullflugtagportland.com/rules.php

flippin and dippin, flying tail to the ground, I fly my heli's like a rabid greyhound!!!
08-25-2004 Over year old.
 
 
ARRietz
Heliman
Location: Dayton, OH

This has been studied for a while by a few different universities (here at Purdue was one) And it was determined that a human powered helicopter is mathematically improbable. (not necessarily imposible) A person doesn't have enough power output to weight in order to generate lift and carry him/her self and the necesary control surfaces, structure, etc. The most power efficent person you could find, like say lance armstrong, would still have to have a human powered heli that weighed next to nothing. An autogyro would be do-able, but would only be a controlled drop and never gain height.

Mumbo, perhaps... Jumbo, perhaps not!
08-27-2004 Over year old.
 
 
AustinTatious
Heliman
Location: Hurst, Texas

see, what I wonder is i fyou had really lightweight blades that were REALLY long....THey would move slow, but they woudl go so fast at the tips....

A speed 300 will lift quite a bit if you gear it right and swing a big prop.. I know us humans have poor" power to weight" so to speak.. But You would think it is possible. They made a human powered Hydroplane that could go around 20-30 mph on the water.. thats DAMN fast on water!

Austin Williams
08-27-2004 Over year old.
 
 
ARRietz
Heliman
Location: Dayton, OH

The problem is that even if all you were powering were the weight of the person and the very light blades, you still would have a very hard time producing enough lift. That is, unless you were able to build it out of unobtainium. That stuff is infinitely strong and weighs nothing. I should see if i can find a report on human powered helis, it had a complete math breakdown. That was 5 years ago though, and reports on unsuccessful projects tend to go away quickly...

Mumbo, perhaps... Jumbo, perhaps not!
08-27-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Fullagas
Key Veteran
Location: Michigan

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Someone recently posted a link to a human-powered heli. IIRC, it did have very long, fragile blades. There was a vid. It didn't aviate.



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I might not be very good, but I'm fun to watch.
08-27-2004 Over year old.
 
 
BnE_Autogyro
Heliman
Location: Altamont,ny

inflateable blades

I think this is a posibility with larger slower blades
of greater number than 4, but less than 10. Two rotors
are better than one. My idea uses two arches to support
the rotor heads. The arcs shaped as airfoils become frame
and lifting and control surfaces at higher speed. This
eliminates weight of keel & mast. The pedal drive is
linked to the props by flexshaft. The props are indiviually
directed by handel bars for thrust vectoring. If small
parafoil blades use an inexpensive design I can have a
test bed for a reconfigurable PC based integrated flight
control system and personal flight commuting could become
a reality.
02-17-2006 Over year old.
 
 
BnE_Autogyro
Heliman
Location: Altamont,ny

this year's events are 4/29 & 10/21

Anybody interested? could start 4/1 to fly in Baltimore.

Human means human (lo_tek).

no Springs, Solar, Vibration to energy rotor blades
with linear induction hubs and
reasonant AC drives.

I have a vision & need money to build & see it fly now.

Any takers? boB
02-17-2006 Over year old.
 
 
chaznc28607
Heliman
Location: Boone NC USA

Wind cups on the rotors?

Course recommend a windy day also, wind cups on the rotor blades would get the rotors moving.
03-17-2006 Over year old.
 
 
BnE_Autogyro
Heliman
Location: Altamont,ny

no cups. no wind, just variable shape blades

The blade spinup is while the blade is flat, hard & the parafoil inlets are closed. JTO uses overspeed energy and only changes the shape of the lifting surface by opening the leading edge inlets. The drive transmision will always need slight power to the top rotors so in normal flight the leading edge inlets can be kept closed to reduce rotor drag.
Any quick need for lift can be obtained from tilting both heads, accepting a slight drop in speed (& RRPM), or the CoG (seat, pedals, props & drive) aft of center.
Hover may not be an obtainable feature of any autogyro, but jump take off and very slow flying is what I designed around.
To date a birotor autogyro with blended wind & body has not been proposed or simulated for flight characteristics.
My idea to flight is what I need to add instruments, provide proof of concept & use as a testbed for a unique reconfigurable fly by wire control computer based on hardened PCs.
03-18-2006 Over year old.
 
 
petthekittyz
Heliman
Location: redding ca

tons of props???

the number of blades doesnt matter, the lenght doesnt matter, as mush.. the only resistance is going to be the actual downforce being created by spinning the top blades, what your going to want to do is have a very efficent way to drive the top blades. im going to say the heavier the blades the better, you might think im nuts but let me explain my reasons.
you start powering the blades with them flat, no down force at all. get the speed up as much as you can, the more weight the more momentum, the more stored energy.... think of it like a fly wheel, kinda... if you have time to get it going before they push you down the ramp things would be great. once they are as fast as you can get them just leave them free spinning, change over to start powering a smaller rear prop, probably 3 small blades. your dropping down the ramp, right before you hit the bottom you pull some sort of release, havent figured out the mechanis yet, that releases the top blades from there flat spin to an aggressive amount of downforce, maybe spring loaded with release pins? sure why not? that would give the contraption tons of lift, once its lifting, keep the top prop pretty flat, or even lean it forward a little to add to the forward movement of the contraption, well with that small amount of power being generated by the person at that time you could probably just leave human power to the top blades without TOO mush fear of the whole machine spinning like a helicopter without a tail prop, lol. if these problems arise upon testing just dont use power on the top when it is in the air, it can spin as fast as it wants without causing any difficutys durring flight as long as there is no power being applied durring flight. the only thing im worried about is the drive mechanism, when were only talking about maybe 1hp from a human, we need a very smooth means of transfering the power with minimal power loss.... hydraulic pump and motor? or flexshaft??? i dont really like flex shafts.... this thing could go pretty far, maybe. and the cool thing is as long as the top blades are spinning they act as a giant wing as well. maybe have the top blades set in a 3 position thing, 1st setting flat for speeding it up, 2nd setting: aggressing downforce for lift, 3rd setting would be backwards, almost as if it was pushing the contraption down, but only go to that setting once the lift is gone. the blade change over so the falling motion on the machine actually starts to power the blades and you lean the whole upper blade assimbily back to maybe 20 degrees, which would inreturn give more lift if you were powering the rear props.
11-06-2006 Over year old.
 
 
chaznc28607
Heliman
Location: Boone NC USA

What about orthopter thrust, with an auto gyro.

Are light weight flapping wings on the back of the auto gyro for thrust to get it up to speed allowed?
Orthopter style, last year seen the orthopter plane get up to 55 mph flapping its wings. Heard it crashed, but that design isn't trying to hover is it?

Could it work on a smaller scale for an auto gyro.
Could still be against the rules, but this is all to prove human power can get you off the ground anyway.
01-19-2007 Over year old.
 
 
BnE_Autogyro
Heliman
Location: Altamont,ny

Not flapping - shape changing & feathering for reduced drag

Autogyro's all have flapping due to laed/lag in rotational plane, but it add to vibrational byproducts that have given the name autogiro better description. In changing shape to parafoil blades in different phases of roataion at fairly low speeds (RRPM under 40) less drag will allow more power to be used on the pedal powered pusher props. The props are thrust vectored by the handlebars and geared similar to a bicycle.
Think anyone will ever be willing to build. I asked Billy Gates since he funded Eclipse air but he turned me down. Emailed him at

billg@microsoft.com

even got an answer, but it wasn't a good one . Ya think he could have thrown me a bone for a couple hundred grand & one would be flying by Oshkosh. Then I could redirect my time to the electronic AFCS so anyone could fly it.
01-22-2007 Over year old.
 
 
BnE_Autogyro
Heliman
Location: Altamont,ny

This year Flugtag - Anybody want to build?

This topic had a lot of people reading, but there still is no build interest. There are some really different ideas in this design including reshaping the Parafoil from spinup to full inflation. The Blended Wing & Body in a Bi-Rotor layout is something I have searched for all over the place & haven't found any others close. I do want to see one built & want to target 800' since this old fat guy doesn't want to go in the water right away. Target airspeed 15kts with a 220# load & 75# gyro. I'm pretty good on a bike I might have a 1/2hp in a sprint. The seat & harness start in a more upright position. A good clutch and multiple transmision gearing for top, wheels, props and being able to switch them. Weight on wheels will automatically turn that drive off & all on props. The CG goes aft as transition leans archs forward & tilts hubs back slightly. The pedals come up & go aft so I will be inclined more leaning on the harness attached to the top arch & pulling hub tilt foward to feather for level flight & keep RRPM up. Then bring the arches to best lift angle (2-5deg?) using the split canard, Vtail & Rudleons (small flaps below the hubs on the trailing edge of the lower arch). These control surfaces and the thrust vectoring of the 2 pusher props below & behind the lower arch will aid control from seat twist, shoulder lean, split handelbar.
These added controls should allow all the lower body energy to maintain foward motion. If I need to feather the props due to higher airspeed causing drag, the weight for extra hardware isn't in the 75# limit I had set and there will be some redesign required and need to keep it near CG. Maybe when I am completely reclined foward the pedals completely back, tail together & tight, canard small tapered swept back. At this speed (28-35kts) the leading edge of the parafoils need to be small & the blades flat & as stiff as possible. Inflateable spar is the way I'd like to solve this. I only have a problem with the material requirement ,,, must be made of environmentally friendly materials & that's not Kevlar, Tyvek & a few other I need for light weight parts.
The rules people will either approve or trash my parts selection.

I don't want the prize, just to see one built to fly.
When it's done I'd like to take the frame it to a real wind tunnel with some small motors to see if it could support jump take off * vertical land. I just think BWB with Birotor Parafoils would be the cheapest way to wind surf.

Anybody want to hire a Flugtagist?

It's just the 1st one isn't going to be cheap. The 10,000th one could have fully automated light weight flight control and intranet FP addmendment (in-flight) w/ATC local on a couple PDAs w/GPS & FRS/UHF packet radios (cell phone backup)
Then there's AC resonant drive based on vibration to energy conversion on both the blades & the A/F and linear induction rotor hubs, solar panels on the blades?.
Come on let's get wild it's the dream design, just move off the keel & mast single rotor pusher gyro platform. Sure it's tried & it is easy, but it's loaded (sorry disk pun) with drag & needs a ton of HP to move it thru the air (didn't someone say you could fly a brick with enough thrust?)
03-13-2008 03:44 PM
 
 
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Autogyros - Gyrocopters > human powered auto gyro--- redbull flugtag
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