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Aerial Photography and Video > Question on Shutter speeds?
 
 
Leegolf
Heliman
Location: England

As I am still waiting 10 weeks later for my system to arrive I obviously have not a chance to find this out for myself as yet!

I understand the reason that most poeple increase the shutter speed on their camera to it's maximum, is so that any system vibration is not captured in the shoot. But can a system be setup well enough that you can reduce the shutter speed and still get a perfect shot?
06-14-2004 Over year old.
 
 
gpyros
Key Veteran
Location: On a beach in Mexico

Define "perfect"!

If perfect is no vibration and always in focus, why lower it? The only reason to go with a slower shutter speed is for larger depth of field, but anything over 30' on most of these cameras is considered infinity anyway, and always in focus no matter what.

Greg

Maxi-Joker helicam
Joker-CX helicam
Graupner Jet Ranger (elec)
Raptor-50
Logo-10
9CH
06-14-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
MPA
Elite Veteran
Location: Australia

Quote 
The only reason to go with a slower shutter speed is for larger depth of field


Its only part of the reason you would work to a higher F value that on the Heli doesnt apply.

The stock lens likely isnt fast enough glass to be shooting high shutter speeds so keep it down to 1/640 and lower.
The stock lens on most of these DSLRs works best at F5.6 and upwards.

Shooting pics on 1/1000 f3.5 with a stock lens is just going to give you burnt happy snap look
With fluffy edges on all the subject matter at the white point.
You sharpen it to fix it and the pic is really rooted then.

If you cant get 50/50 shots sharp at 1/250 you really do have a vibration problem.
06-14-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Leegolf
Heliman
Location: England

MPA

I have a Sony DSC-V1 not sure if you know anything about the lens quality etc in this camera?

But rather than setting the shutter speed to 1/1000th which is the highest possable on my camera and the focus to infinity, you would recommend setting the shutter speed to around 1/250 and letting the camera set the aperture and the focus itself?

Did I get that right??
06-14-2004 Over year old.
 
 
MPA
Elite Veteran
Location: Australia

Start at 1/250, if half the shots are in focus then up the speed a bit till you can get pretty much all shots in focus, that may leave you at 1/500 or 1/640 perhaps, which is fine for the stock lens.
If you try 1/250 and all shots are blurred all the time, the Heli has too much vibration no doubt about it.

One overiding factor, light.
If its dull winter light or overcast / very low light, the F value wont matter a squat to the color and white point contrast etc..

Above all correct exposure is what counts so use whatever F value you need to get the correct exposure.
(remember that you can fix an under exposed shot, but an over exposed shot is rooted for good.)

It just when the light is brighter and the shutter speed starts to climb with it at F 3.5, time to notch up the F value a stop or two, not the shutter speed.
Try to keep the F value up to 5.6 where you can.
06-14-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
gpyros
Key Veteran
Location: On a beach in Mexico

MPA:

You are correct when talking about many of the small digital cameras, but the Sony DSC-V1 that Leegolf was specifically discussing in his original message that started this thread has an exceptionally clean Carl Zeiss f/2.8 lens. We have tested it and it gives good sharp pictures even wide open.

I know you qualified your statement to say that "The stock lens likely isnt fast enough" but here it happens to be fine, which is what he was asking and how I answered it.

Greg

Maxi-Joker helicam
Joker-CX helicam
Graupner Jet Ranger (elec)
Raptor-50
Logo-10
9CH
06-15-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
MPA
Elite Veteran
Location: Australia

Greg

I know what camera he has, the fact he has a Carl Ziess lens doesn't mean sqaut to F values used.
06-15-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
FLAP
Key Veteran
Location: Michigan

A little fuzzy; 1/60th of a second shutter.

06-16-2004 Over year old.
 
 
MPA
Elite Veteran
Location: Australia

A well dialied in Heli should be able to shoot at 1/60.

Shows clearly that if you need to run shutter at 1/1000 youve got large vibration problem that should be resolved, if not for clear shots, for the benefit of your Heli lasting longer from less vibration.
06-16-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
gpyros
Key Veteran
Location: On a beach in Mexico

MPA:

I never said I HAD to run the camera at 1/1000, I simply like the fact that every single shot has no blur and is perfectly exposed. My cameraperson can take a shot whenever it is nicely composed, whether I'm fully in position or on the way to it.

When we did that shoot documenting the fire damage last week, we came back with over 100 shots, and could choose the best based on composition, didn't have to throw out a bunch because of blur. You'll see JPG compression artifacts on the shots long before you'll see blur.

When you find a system that works for you, stay with it!

Besides, I'm running only Jokers as camera ships, the word 'vibration' is no longer part of the vocabulary!

Greg

Maxi-Joker helicam
Joker-CX helicam
Graupner Jet Ranger (elec)
Raptor-50
Logo-10
9CH
06-16-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
MPA
Elite Veteran
Location: Australia

Greg

I realise that you_choose to run it at 1/1000
Why you use 1/1000 shutter is you choice for whatever reasons.

I simply mean for the OP who is trying speeds, using 1/1000 to get sharp shots isn't a solution as such.

Appart from that.
If you cant get a card full of sharp shots at 1/500 to 640
IMO, there is something not right going on there.

But then it all depends on the subject matter, if quality of colors and contrast is less than important over clarifty for refernce purposes like fire damage then 1/1000 could be justified, but for quality in landscapes and real estate pics, IMO you could do better at lower
speeds.

Cheers

PS
Quote 
When you find a system that works for you, stay with it!


This is contrary to the progress of mankind Greg.
There is always a better way.
06-16-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
gpyros
Key Veteran
Location: On a beach in Mexico

MPA:

Then we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one!

Bottom line - with my setup, I'm getting excellent colors, quality, and contrast, along with sharp pictures, with a higher shutter speed. For whatever reason, you aren't getting the same with yours, and you need a lower shutter speed. My clients are very happy with my results, yours are hopefully as happy with yours. Keep up the good work with your landscapes and real estate pics, I'll just continue muddling along with my feature film and broadcast TV clients.

Do whatever works for you, as should everyone else. You've just been coming off on this thread as saying that yours is the only way and attacking anything else as inferior, and that other people don't know what they are talking about, have too much vibration, or whatever.

Peace,
Greg

Maxi-Joker helicam
Joker-CX helicam
Graupner Jet Ranger (elec)
Raptor-50
Logo-10
9CH
06-16-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
MPA
Elite Veteran
Location: Australia

Quote 
yours is the only way and attacking anything else as inferior


Do you come on with this sort of thing everytime some doesnt agree with you ?
I dont see why my opinion bothers you.

I couldn't give a toss if you dont agree with me and I imagine nor could anyone else here.
06-16-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
gpyros
Key Veteran
Location: On a beach in Mexico

Quote 
Do you come on with this sort of thing everytime some doesnt agree with you ?

No, because most people are polite about it and explain the reasoning for their statements, not just condemn in a condesending manner.

I enjoy a good debate over the relative merits of doing things in different ways to get the results you want, and often learn from other people's differing point of view.

Quote 
I dont see why my opinion bothers you.

You are wrong there, I have learned not to care what you think, especially since you have become so obviously disgruntled about helicams since your government has regulated you out of business.

But I am concerned that some of the newcomers to this hobby who don't know any better yet get the impression that there is only your way to do something, and that is why I responded to the thread.

Cheers,
Greg

Maxi-Joker helicam
Joker-CX helicam
Graupner Jet Ranger (elec)
Raptor-50
Logo-10
9CH
06-16-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
MPA
Elite Veteran
Location: Australia

Quote 
But I am concerned that some of the newcomers to this hobby who don't know any better


And that is your problem right there.

Everyone including those new to it are adults and can make up their own minds about what they believe and dont believe and don't need you to hold their hand.

No-one needs_you to tell them I'm_wrong, if it is so, they can figure that out for themselves.
They'll try it, if youre right it wont work and thats that.
Or perhaps it will work for them.

You dont agree with my advice, so what.
Who says your advice is better than anyone elses advice in here.

And infering matters about my character or what you think my attitude is wont make you anymore right about anything, its just mischevious trouble making so leave it out..
06-16-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
gpyros
Key Veteran
Location: On a beach in Mexico

Oh, I see the problem - I'm actually trying to help people who ask questions with the benefit of the experience of having my own corporation for 23 years so they don't have to make the same mistakes that I did.

And, if you reread my last post, I didn't say anything about your character, just your attitude. There is a difference.

Fine, I'm off this thread, feel free to jump in and get in the last word - I won't respond. That's only if you care enough about what I say to post again, of course.

For those who emailed and PM'd me about these issues, we'll just continue those talks in private.

For the rest, I apologize for getting involved in this off-topic conversation in the middle of a thread.

Greg Pyros
Pyros Pictures, Inc.

Maxi-Joker helicam
Joker-CX helicam
Graupner Jet Ranger (elec)
Raptor-50
Logo-10
9CH
06-16-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
MPA
Elite Veteran
Location: Australia

Piffle & Hog wash

Its just stirring up trouble and creating arguments where the was none before.
06-16-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
TopView
Senior Heliman
Location: The Netherlands

Shutter speed

As far as i can remember the higher the F number like 22 the smaller the diafragma inside the lens. the sharpness is now almost endless, the only problem now is that you need a top lens to make a overall sharp picture.
Thats the only connection with te F value and the lens.

If you want to make a picture with the next settings, F=4, shutter=800 you probbebly get a picture witch is sharp in the center and gets blurry at the edges, depending on thet lens you use.
Better setting under these conditions would be, F=11, shutter=250. Now you closed your diafragma by 6 stops, with the shutter set at 250 or 200 you will get the same amount of light thrue the lens but the result will be a shaper picture all the way into the edges of the picture.

Its always a combination of things. A poor lens will result in unsharp blurry pictures, thats why you shoul always look at the lens when you buy a new camera, spent your money on a camera with a good lens thats what makes the pictures, not the technical options and gadgets on the body.

As a real photographer you should make the best possible picture out at the field, correct as little as possible on the computer.

If the light conditions are right and the camera is set up right then the pictures will be awsome.

Good luck

Rene, (NL)
06-16-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
ImRich
Veteran
Location: Derry, NH USA

On thing that needs to be taken into account is not just your heli setup, but also how still the heli is when the shutter is triggered.

Sometimes when we are flying, it's windy, or the camera operator and the pilot are not in perfect syncronization. So the camera operator triggers the camera just as the pilot makes an attitude correction or moves the heli. In this case, the faster shutter speed(s) will allow you to have more useable shots than a lower shutter speed.

If all is perfect:

  • Your heli is setup without any rotational vibration (main rotor, tail rotor, tail drive mechanism) which tends to be lower frequency vibration.

  • Your engine/clutch/fan does not induce any high frequency vibration.

  • Your heli is perfectly still in relation to the ground when the shutter is triggered.


Then you can probably use lower shutter speeds. But I find it's hard to have everything prefect (including the heli not moving in relation to the ground) at all times. It's easy to have the heli setup with no vibration.

As to getting good shots with the aperature open, a good quality camera (actually the lens) will go a long way to improve this. This is why some lenses cost $2,000 or $3,000 alone! But if you're using an inexpensive camera, you'll get much better results with the smaller aperature settings. This is where a slower shutter speed will help, it will allow for better pictures because the aperature will be closed a bit more.

---
Rich
06-17-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
FLAP
Key Veteran
Location: Michigan

I'll second that IMRICH. My setup is exactly the same as the first day I started taking pictures (thanks to you guys setup advice). The only thing I had to learn was to hover in one spot when taking photos...not easy to do when you start as you are are distracted by the novely of the mount. Also, hovering at 200-300 feet is not anything you normally do if not taking photos. I generally set up my photos for 1/500 or 1/650 (copying Jeff S's setups). Holding in one place makes big difference.
06-18-2004 Over year old.
 
 
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Aerial Photography and Video > Question on Shutter speeds?
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