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Aerobatic FAI F3C Contest > Can you suggest a F3C training machine?
 
 
cwire
Heliman
Location: Perth Western Australia

I was wondering if their is anyone out there Who can advise me on selecting a machine for begining F3C flying.
I have been flying helis for 15-17 months in a Raptor 50v2 with CNC upgrades but still do not find the adequate response.
It was suggested to me that I purchase a 90 size heli like a standard Hirobo Freya with upgrades on the washout assembly, swash plate and control arms.
I was told not to buy the top of the range model eg Hirobo Eagle WC or the X-cell fury FAI until I have acquired sufficient skill level to handle them. I think these machines would be out of my price range anyway


Your input would be most welcome
05-22-2004 Over year old.
 
 
nivlek
rrProfessor
Location: Norfolk England

Any decent 60 size, or above, heli should do the job.

The Freya or a Predator would be really good.
05-22-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Nate7357
Senior Heliman
Location: Brooklyn, NY

Freya X-Spec. The best RC heli ive ever flown.
05-22-2004 Over year old.
 
 
I3DM
rrProfessor
Location: Israel

Any one of the Freyas would be great since Hirobo's response is known to be awesome for F3C type of flying... they just hang in there, and so precise ! a stock Freya would do you good if you dont want to spend a lot.

Team pilot for Radix, Helidirect, Logictech, ThunderPower, Fromeco, Gaui
www.liorzahavi.com
05-22-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
capt.dan
Senior Heliman
Location: Birmingham, AL USA

The last contest we had here in Birmingham, AL, 3 of the top 4 in class 1 were hirobo's. 1st was an Eagle 2 EXWC with a SSR VI head, 3rd was a Eagle 2 EXWC with an SSZ II head, and 4th was a standard plastic freya with the FFZ II head. 2nd place was a MA with a tempast head.

Dan
05-22-2004 Over year old.
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I3DM
rrProfessor
Location: Israel

Well Hirobo's are known to be very powerful in the F3C department, just fly one and you'll immidiately see why !

Team pilot for Radix, Helidirect, Logictech, ThunderPower, Fromeco, Gaui
www.liorzahavi.com
05-22-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
eSmith
Veteran
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

The guy's are giving you good suggestions for new machines but there is another option. The Raptor 50 is very capable and the right combo of blades and paddles will get you where you want to be. trying different combinations of those items will also give you some more knowledge in how a change of either can dramaticly change the flight characteristics of any machine.

Heaver paddles will add stability but will slow your cyclic response, light paddles of course do the opposite. You will want to look closly at blades and try to find something weighted for Auto's, there are lot's of blades like this that offer better stability and hold momementum longer in throttle hold.

Just a thought but you may be able to milk a bit more out of your Rappy before going to a more expensive machine..

-eSmith.

http://www.edmheli.ca
05-22-2004 Over year old.
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sreuss
Senior Heliman
Location: Ontario, Canada

If you're serious about eventually competing in FAI, then I'd recommend starting w. a 90 size heli. Everyone else in competition is using them. Alhtough these larger engines aren't necessary for the patterns, it is much easier to get the power you need from a 90 than from a 60; with a 60, you have to squeeze the power out by tuning.

Note that, IMHO, anything less than a 60 size heli doesn't develop enough momentum to carry yourself through the maneouvers properly. You won't be practicing the maneouvers properly unless that is the case.

In terms of the heli, I'll put my vote in for the Century Predator SE or Max. I have the latter, and have been flying the FAI patterns on it, and flies as well as my Vigor CS ever did. I use my Max for smoother 3d (read not 'extreme') and it has been a no-maintenance machine; just fuel and fly. Note that any 60-90 size heli with a driven tail will work for the FAI patterns. The sharper turns in the autos aren't always the easiest w. a slipper clutch (partially driven tail).

Cheers,
Steve
05-22-2004 Over year old.
 
 
RRLL
Heliman
Location: Israel

If Hirobo is what you want get the standard freya.
I had both eagle ex wc and the standard freya, the freya will be fine,
no upgrades needed, just get a good set of blades.
05-22-2004 Over year old.
 
 
I3DM
rrProfessor
Location: Israel

RRLL, i knew you liked the Freya a lot !

Team pilot for Radix, Helidirect, Logictech, ThunderPower, Fromeco, Gaui
www.liorzahavi.com
05-22-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Secret Squirrel
Key Veteran
Location: New Zealander living in Melbourne, Australia

F3C is mostly about pilot skill and machine setup. Most machines will do F3C pretty good with appropriate setup.

However the top line machines (Tempest, Eagle, Caliber and Sylphide) do the finer points just that much better. Yesterday I flew an Eagle 3, and during autos that thing is like landing a 747. The pitch response in hover in sureal (ie when you raise and lower the collective, the machine rises and falls straight, it does not wander forward or back like just about all CCPM machines I've flown).

The important thing with F3C is to make sure you get good servos (ie digital 9252's) setup correctly, get good blades (this makes a HELL of a difference), and great paddles.

An OS 70 will have enough power to do the pattern nicely as long as you manage momentum well. The thing with the 90's is you can make a hash of your fly in and still have the grunt to pull the machine through the maneuver.

Si
05-23-2004 Over year old.
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deadfish
Senior Heliman
Location: Taipei, Taiwan

At the beginning stage of F3C flying

At the beginning stage of F3C flying, Hirobo Sceadu 50 would be a very good choice with no any upgrade at all. All you need is a good set of blade, such as Hi-product PG-50(M). Good electricties.
Leaving all weights in the paddles and Using the inner hold of wash-out control arm, your input to the heli will very soft and SLOW. (so please flying high in aerobatics, in case something goes wrong.).

Practicing basic manoeuvres and even taking off and landing.

Spending all your time to understand the machine and knowing the setting up.

Feeling the interaction between your input, environment, and the heli.
05-23-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Jarno
Veteran
Location: Finland

Simon said it all Just about any 90-size heli will do fine with the proper setup and pilot.

I've been flying the Freya EX WC with the SSR-VI head for some time now. The head is too responsive or over sensitive for my taste. The SSZ-II suits better my flying style and will probably swap the SSR-VI for it in the future. Mostly we have much lower temp. around here than in Japan where they use SSR-VI head a lot and in my opinion it works better in there too. Air gets very "thick" at low temperature and that's why the head responses are bigger here... lowering the head speeds helps a bit but when it's windy it will double the problem

Just my 0.0000002 euros.

Jarno
05-23-2004 Over year old.
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Fisherman
Senior Heliman
Location: Hong Kong

Use a standard 91 version Freya, with a little bit necessary up-grade parts.

This is very suitable for F3C training.

******

Have Fun !!!!1
05-24-2004 Over year old.
 
 
GM1
Elite Veteran
Location: Tallahassee, Florida US

What I see

Having flown FAI F3C for the last few years, there are many models that are capable of performing at a very high level. At the US NATS last couple of years the following models were used in F3C, in alphabetical order, not order of finish.

Hirobo Eagle II WC
JR Vigor CS
Kyosho Caliber 90
Miniature Tempest FAI
Miniature XL Pro IIK


In some of the lower AMA classes I saw several models that performed well

Robbe Futura Nova
Hirobo Freya
X-Cell SE
Century Predator
X-Cell Fury Extreme

There were probably some models in both FAI and AMA I do not remember that did OK but basically any quality 60/90 model that is a proven design will work to train for FAI. Blade and paddle choices, motor and gear ratio choices, seem to make the model rather than the other way around. More important yet, is getting the model set up to suit your particular style of flying and then getting out and PRACTICING. Of course, there is no substitute for talent. I fly quite a bit but guys like Curtis, Scott, Wayne, (the list seems to be endless) can beat me handily with a borrowed model. Wayne has flown my contest model a couple of times and he hovers it WAAAAAY better than I do. I have flown his also and he hovers his model WAAAAAAY better than I do.
The biggest reason I fly FAI is that I get together with guys that really KNOW why the model does what it does and can optimize the model to perform at its best and learn why and how they do things. I take the same lessons and apply them to my sport models and they fly great also. In watching these guys fly, I am just in AWE of how precise and consistent they are. If I do a maneuver ten times, I may get one GREAT one, seven that are OK and two that suck (this is a dramatic improvement over where I started). On the same maneuver, Curtis will do 9 great ones and one that's OK. Rarely will the guys at this level do one that sucks. When I get through a round cleanly, none that are awful, I find I score pretty well. The trick is to string those rounds together back to back to back. Consistency is the true name of the game so select a model you can get to work well and keep together. If you can't keep the model running so you can practice, it's not a good FAI model.
Gordie

On a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.
05-24-2004 Over year old.
 
 
Secret Squirrel
Key Veteran
Location: New Zealander living in Melbourne, Australia

Amen to that Geordie!

Si
05-24-2004 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
 
 
Optech
Key Veteran
Location: Vista/Oceanside, CA.

.50s, in my opinion, should not be used for FAI. I didn't say they can't, its just that I wouldn't recommend it.

They don't weight enough. As soon as the wind gets "wrong" you'll be fighting the wind more than flying the heli. Bigger blades don't help as they lower your disc loading. Fine for aeros, crappy for hovering.

But more importantly, They do not carry the same presence or perspective that .60s+ do. Consequently, you could develop bad habits that you'll have to break when you move into a bigger ship.

One of the first things you need to get down is how to fly a straight line, consistently! at an appropriate distance out in front of you. That way all your exits and entries are that much easier to put into the same place. All your visual queues and timing for manuvers are dependant on your visual referance to the heli as well as its speed. The only way to get good is to practice with your heli over, over, and over.

Now take and throw a bigger, faster heli into the mix. The first thing you'll do is probably fly it too far out. This way its visually about the same size your used to with your smaller .50 heli. Only now, it takes more time to get from point A to point B so your timing and positioning is off or inconsistent. You'll basically have to develop your patterns all over again.... Why do this to yourself????

I didn't realize how dependant you get visually to your heli. At the last NATS it was really rainy. By the final few rounds the place where we stand was under water so they put a mat out for us to stand on. When they did that, the reference line was lost so I must have been a step or two back from normal. I could NOT hit the center of the landing circle to save my life. As I was coming down on the final leg of all my manuvers I could see that I was landing on the edge. Basically too late to do anything about it that would not be obvious. I realized that I cannot see the circle (I'm looking up at my heli) so I was setting it in position as I normally do via my visual referance to what the heli should look like at that point. However, as I was a step or two back from normal so was the heli, so as it came down it was off. And if it was off right out in front of me, you can bet it was off on all the other points I was trying to hit. I even tried compensating for it but I could not get a consistant result. The next round I stepped on the mat then took a step forward. Bingo!... I was back to hitting center circle.

Spend the extra dollars and get the bigger heli to begin with.

Mike

Viva La Airtronics!
05-24-2004 Over year old.
 
 
cwire
Heliman
Location: Perth Western Australia

Thanks for the input guys. Looks like I got of home work to do before I start anything. But at this stage ill definitely be looking at a 90 size ship either a JR or a Hirobo
Thanks Guys
Damien
05-25-2004 Over year old.
 
 
mrNoodles
rrProfessor
Location: Borlänge, Sweden

Quote 
Add to this, the fact that A.S. Jr. has been flying something similar for a little while now (with fantastic results), and it's pretty easy to determine that the R90 won't be a slouch.


Yeeahaa
Here comes that "AlanS Jr thing" again...

Though Im NOT saying he isn´t one of the TOP pilots in the world.
But give him a Kyosho, Hirobo, MinAir or Century and some time and Im sure he would fly them as well as he does with his Rappys.

/Fredrik
'Hm now I just have to find out where to connect the GV1 sensor to the Jazz80 ESC.
05-25-2004 Over year old.
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mrNoodles
rrProfessor
Location: Borlänge, Sweden

Good question!

Must be that they´re more of a 3D heli, and we´re on about F3c helis in this thread.

/Fredrik
'Hm now I just have to find out where to connect the GV1 sensor to the Jazz80 ESC.
05-25-2004 Over year old.
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Aerobatic FAI F3C Contest > Can you suggest a F3C training machine?
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